The WATCHDOG - Views, statements, and opinions expressed are the author's and do not necessarily represent those of the Secessionist Medals website > Questions and Discussions Regarding Authenticity

The Bavarian Mint and Goetz Medals

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Bill:

--- Quote from: Haarmann on April 22, 2013, 11:23:32 PM ---There are obvious attempts already in place to counterfeit the Munich edge-stamp.  One is easy to spot as the letters are larger and more blocked, really, just very clumsy looking.

Kienast didn't mention anything about 60mm silver K-288's either.  I would imagine some got melted down for bread at the beginning, or especially the end, of the Weimar period.  ;)

--- End quote ---

It would not hurt to begin photographing and cataloging genuine edge stamps and their characteristics (from both Goetz and other mint struck medals). I long ago sold my Hitler medals, so it is too late for me to contribute to the database. It would be important to record the relative position (e.g. 8 o'clock to 4 o'clock in relation to the top of the medal) and upside down or right side up in relation to the obverse. Are different edge marks consistently applied? Are seems from a segmented collar visible on well preserved specimens, etc. With a large enough database, one could start building the diagnostics for original versus modern specimens.

Henry Scott Goodman:

--- Quote from: Bill on April 27, 2013, 03:19:24 PM ---Do you have the full reference for the article?

--- End quote ---

This is what I have from the coversheet for the article:

MÉDAILLES
The Magazine of Fédération Internationale de la Médaille (FIDEM)
XXIX FIDEM Art Medal World Congress
Seixal Portugal 2004
Wesche Markus, Karl Goetz, Medallic Artist and Businessman

Bill, If you have a copy of the original article it would serve us better if you could get a good scan on it and upload.  My copy has most of the medal images looking like Oreo cookies.  Let Haarmaan know if you need an assist putting it in the forum library.

HSG

Sgt.Schultz:
Perhaps someone can answer these questions and /or comment/add to  my observations.  Why do most auction houses in Germany note the Rim Lettering or lack thereof on the struck 36m AR Goetz medals, but some , notably WAG-O, do not.  Wouldnt it be a big problem if a buyer assumed the piece had rim lettering, only to find out it didnt?  On a related note, I have seen, and even purchased (for diagnostic reasons) some of the AR struck Goetz pieces that were described as "later strikes" by the selling dealers.  Is "later strike" basically a euphemism for "no rim lettering"?  These struck medals with no rim lettering seem to have appeared mostly after the Hirsch auction in 2011?  In addition to the unmarked rims, they usually seem to be thicker than normally seen, "brighter" than you would expect, and just dont look "right".  Is it assumed by most that there  arent new examples being struck even today, and the "collectability of these examples comes from the fact they were orchestrated by Guido say in the '70's, with a defined availability?

Nosferatu:
SS, I'm thinking WAG-O came into a cache of re-strikes about the same time the Hirsch (Gorney 94) stuff came to market.  Doesn't anyone find it strange that Goetz re-strikes, dies and hubs, and assorted other 'problem' material all surfaced about the same time as the failed Gorney auction lots were offered by Hirsch, and that it centers around only a small number of German dealers?  Many of the sold Hirsch items were being marketed as 'models' but 'models' made by whom, Guido or Karl?  Auction results seem to imply the former.

The silver re-strikes, as you'd expect, look too good to be true.  They are consistently a nice matte, 'antiqued' finish.  Are they being created today, I don't know.  Could Guido have struck a deal with someone to produce these back in the 70's when Guido and Gunter became partners to sell the soul of Karl?  Again, don't know.  I doubt Guido's actual hand was involved since these re-strikes are clearly beyond Guido's capabilities in comparison to his other rip-offs of his father's work.

As exhibited by WAG-O (and their surrogate ebay seller mentioned in other threads) there does seem to be an almost inexhaustible supply of these re-strikes.   

Haarmann:
nosferatu, you might be on to something.  I just took a look at WAG-o's auction 40 Goetz pieces and they are selling ten or so 36mm silver medals that were all struck at the Bavarian mint originally, but really only one of them has the requisite mint edge-stamp as written in it's description here: http://muenzen.wago-auktionen.de/losdetail.aspx?auktion=40&losnr=1590&rid=10 and it's made of WHITE-METAL!?!  BHM doesn't edge-stamp white metal medals!?!  You also mention the 'matte' appearance of the suspected restrikes and all of them do have this appearance.
 
I hope collectors are picking up on the fact that BHM-less medals are restrikes.  They certainly aren't being told this by the dealers.  Kienast originally claimed that the most rare medals of Goetz were the WWII silver medals.  I don't think that was the case then, and it certainly isn't the case now.

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