The WATCHDOG - Views, statements, and opinions expressed are the author's and do not necessarily represent those of the Secessionist Medals website > Questions and Discussions Regarding Authenticity

What's going on with the Heritage 4/23/13 Goetz Auction?

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Haarmann:
Anyone have insights into the miraculous resurrection of these Goetz dies and hubs?

Nosferatu:
I've been hearing through the grapevine that these dies and hubs might have been created by Karl's son, Guido, after Karl died in 1950.  Could it be that this really happened?  Where do you think they've been all this time?

Barber25:
Has anyone been in contact with Gunter Kienast?  He should have known all about these as he worked closely with Guido.  Heritage seems to be very tight-lipped about the source of these items.

Haarmann:
I haven't been in touch with Gunter for a number of years.  He's getting up in age, I think in his late 80's.  Last I heard he was living in the Midwest. 

As I recall, he began translating the Gorny&Mosch 68 catalog for me.  He claimed that something happened that resulted in the Goetz material being pulled at the last minute from the auction.  He claimed he didn't know why.  All of the material was missing until the Hirsch auction 272 in May 2011.  This auction and its Goetz material was greeted with little fanfare and even less bidding.  I believe one or two German companies picked up the largest portion of the material at bargain basement prices.  I know a member here bought a number of pieces and was surprised at their overall poor condition.

I still have a funny feeling about this entire lot.  Granted, there were some rare and authentic pieces but the majority of material did not appear right.  Could a lot of this material been recreated by Guido?

Haarmann:
There is, at least for the time being, a more spirited discussion about this auction over at Coin People.  Here is the link: http://www.coinpeople.com/index.php?/topic/33694-karl-goetz-dies-are-being-sold-on-heritage/

Bill H.  Writes:
 
"I have no objection to collecting dies and hubs and have a few in my own collection. I believe they are legitimate collectibles. I have no doubt that the ownership or title to these pieces is legitimate. But, given that the items were in the Bavarian Mint, I assume the property or intellectual property of Karl Goetz and his heirs, and were reported to have been destroyed, it is a legitimate question to ask if they were legally "liberated" from the mint. Did the Goetz family lose ownership rights through their agreement or did time separate them from their rights? I don't know the answer to these questions and they may well have sold or surrendered their rights. At some point, the material becomes too old and the history lost. In this instance, the provenience of the pieces is of historical interest, even if we do not know the identity of the current owner. Where they go when sold is also problematic given there are so many of them. Will their existance cast doubt on future appearances of rare medals? Unidentified restrikes from original dies are problems in other collecting areas, either depressing the value of originals or bilking the unsuspecting purchaser who does not know better (think Unlisted metal variety, rare!). I think in this instance it is the magnitude (1200 dies and hubs) that raises concerns and suggests something more systematic than a simple case of someone picking up a die or two as war booty. It took some planning and effort to remove a ton or so of metal from the mint.

On the plus side, they are being sold in a documented fashion in a well known auction house. The world will know they exist and will be on guard if rare medals start appearing with unexpected frequency. Maybe someone will issue restrikes, appropriately marked and identified, and re-invigorate an art medal market for originals. Only time will tell."

And Bill writes additionally;

"I had a nice conversation last night with the Goetzdude who is writing is own thoughts on the dies. It will be interesting to see what he has to say. But, that conversation covered a number of topics and sent me back to my Kienast to reread the work after a number of years.

Why make hubs to make dies for medals that will likely never require more than one die? You can go from the model to the die in one operation, no hub required. In fact the hub is an extra step and expense. Kienast covers that question. Goetz went from his model to a hub when he thought the medal might have a greater demand than he could fill with cast medals (a time consuming process in itself). His first step was making the hub so he could hand finish the detail as he wanted it. A die was then made and some elements were added directly to the die. So it seems he could work on the die, but prefered the positive image that the hub provided.

The fact that Goetz hand finished each hub and die makes originals really interesting pieces. And that fact led me to a really big problem. If you go to the sale catalog, look at lot 27035, a reverse hub for a 36mm medal. It is rusted and the outer rim is broken off in several locations. This is obviously an old hub that saw the ravages of time? Since Goetz finished the hubs personally and then hand finished the die made from the hub, this has to be the original hub after use given its condition. Right? Well, if that is the case, then how does on explain lot 27042, a 36mm splash die made from the broken hub. A second 36mm die made for use with a collar is offered as lot 27041. A splash die is used for striking medals without a collar, something usually done for larger medals that have to be struck mutiple times to bring up the detail and with too much force to use with a collar (the force needed for high relief, large medals would break a collar). Medals struck with splash dies are usually finished by turning them on a lathe. Regardless of whether Goetz relied on a splash die or a collar die, he would never have made a die from a broken hub. If he finished the hubs and dies by hand to ensure the quality desired, why would he fool with a broken hub?

There is more to the story of these hubs and dies than meets the eye."

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