Author Topic: The Bavarian Mint and Goetz Medals  (Read 8371 times)

Offline Haarmann

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The Bavarian Mint and Goetz Medals
« on: April 22, 2013, 10:37:42 PM »
Over the past two or three years my cohort and I have been watching an ever increasing influx of questionable Goetz struck medals enter the market.  These are not the restrikes that have been made apparent in such auctions as Hirsch Auktion 272, Nachprägungen, pp.242, but rather pieces, usually 36mm silver, being sold as authentic Goetz struck examples while certain diagnostics suggest otherwise.

One of the easiest diagnostics is the absence of any mint edge-stamp created during the minting process by way of a collar and higher than usual striking pressures.  In the case of the Munich Mint, struck pieces are edge-stamped with BAYER HAUPTMÜNZAMT, BAYER HAUPTMÜNZAMT FEINSILBER, etc., etc..  The material we are seeing lacks the mint's edge-stamp while the edges have been lathed to the correct diameter.  We believe this indicates restriking in a private mint and likely at a later date post 1950, Karl's year of death.

Yes, Karl created some early medals and all original coin pattern sets by way of private mints, this is documented, but where are all of these later K-# examples being minted if not by the Bavarian mint?  And who was creating them?  Markus Wesche has been studying the minting numbers for Goetz medals from Bavarian Mint records.  These are the only examples sanctioned by Karl while he was alive.  I certainly hope his study comes to fruition in the near future.

So my question to the rest of you, Will every single coin and/or medal produced by the Bavarian Mint, or any mint for that matter, carry a mint edge-stamped identifier?



Offline Sgt.Schultz

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Re: The Bavarian Mint and Goetz Medals
« Reply #1 on: April 22, 2013, 11:10:09 PM »
Hmmmmm...here's another twist.   I purchased an AR 36m Goetz medal within the month that isnt seen very often.  It has the edge lettering, but the lettering was not centered.  Instead it was slightly sloped, and right along the edge of the rim.  (I've seen hundreds of edge lettered Goetz struck medals--never seen one like this)  Dont want to get paranoid, but it crossed my mind that perhaps the next step would be an attempt to fabricate the edge lettering if that became the "end-all" diagnostic.

Speaking of Wesche, I was fascinated by the report he put together regarding mintages of various AR Goetz medals in various sizes.  One stuck out in particular, K-288, Baron Von Richthoven.  Going from memory, Wesche reported that there were 2,400 AR 36m struck, and 650 AR 60m examples.  In 15 years of close Goetz study of auctions/inventories, etc, I have NEVER seen a 60m offered.  Has Anyone??  I find this very strange.

Offline Haarmann

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Re: The Bavarian Mint and Goetz Medals
« Reply #2 on: April 22, 2013, 11:23:32 PM »
There are obvious attempts already in place to counterfeit the Munich edge-stamp.  One is easy to spot as the letters are larger and more blocked, really, just very clumsy looking.

Kienast didn't mention anything about 60mm silver K-288's either.  I would imagine some got melted down for bread at the beginning, or especially the end, of the Weimar period.  ;)

Offline Henry Scott Goodman

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Re: The Bavarian Mint and Goetz Medals
« Reply #3 on: April 24, 2013, 10:28:31 PM »
Hi all,

I have an ugly xerox copy of the Wesche article from The Medal several years ago.  I'll scan it and then get with Haarmann to put it on the server.  Maybe SM should think about adding a "Reading Room" to the forum where we can all upload material for the benefit of all.  Just a thought.

HSG

Offline Bill

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Re: The Bavarian Mint and Goetz Medals
« Reply #4 on: April 27, 2013, 03:19:24 PM »
Hi all,

I have an ugly xerox copy of the Wesche article from The Medal several years ago.  I'll scan it and then get with Haarmann to put it on the server.  Maybe SM should think about adding a "Reading Room" to the forum where we can all upload material for the benefit of all.  Just a thought.

HSG

Do you have the full reference for the article?

Offline Bill

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Re: The Bavarian Mint and Goetz Medals
« Reply #5 on: April 27, 2013, 03:25:03 PM »
There are obvious attempts already in place to counterfeit the Munich edge-stamp.  One is easy to spot as the letters are larger and more blocked, really, just very clumsy looking.

Kienast didn't mention anything about 60mm silver K-288's either.  I would imagine some got melted down for bread at the beginning, or especially the end, of the Weimar period.  ;)

It would not hurt to begin photographing and cataloging genuine edge stamps and their characteristics (from both Goetz and other mint struck medals). I long ago sold my Hitler medals, so it is too late for me to contribute to the database. It would be important to record the relative position (e.g. 8 o'clock to 4 o'clock in relation to the top of the medal) and upside down or right side up in relation to the obverse. Are different edge marks consistently applied? Are seems from a segmented collar visible on well preserved specimens, etc. With a large enough database, one could start building the diagnostics for original versus modern specimens.

Offline Henry Scott Goodman

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Re: The Bavarian Mint and Goetz Medals
« Reply #6 on: April 27, 2013, 03:37:21 PM »
Do you have the full reference for the article?

This is what I have from the coversheet for the article:

MÉDAILLES
The Magazine of Fédération Internationale de la Médaille (FIDEM)
XXIX FIDEM Art Medal World Congress
Seixal Portugal 2004
Wesche Markus, Karl Goetz, Medallic Artist and Businessman

Bill, If you have a copy of the original article it would serve us better if you could get a good scan on it and upload.  My copy has most of the medal images looking like Oreo cookies.  Let Haarmaan know if you need an assist putting it in the forum library.

HSG

Offline Sgt.Schultz

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Re: The Bavarian Mint and Goetz Medals
« Reply #7 on: January 23, 2014, 10:31:25 PM »
Perhaps someone can answer these questions and /or comment/add to  my observations.  Why do most auction houses in Germany note the Rim Lettering or lack thereof on the struck 36m AR Goetz medals, but some , notably WAG-O, do not.  Wouldnt it be a big problem if a buyer assumed the piece had rim lettering, only to find out it didnt?  On a related note, I have seen, and even purchased (for diagnostic reasons) some of the AR struck Goetz pieces that were described as "later strikes" by the selling dealers.  Is "later strike" basically a euphemism for "no rim lettering"?  These struck medals with no rim lettering seem to have appeared mostly after the Hirsch auction in 2011?  In addition to the unmarked rims, they usually seem to be thicker than normally seen, "brighter" than you would expect, and just dont look "right".  Is it assumed by most that there  arent new examples being struck even today, and the "collectability of these examples comes from the fact they were orchestrated by Guido say in the '70's, with a defined availability?

Offline Nosferatu

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Re: The Bavarian Mint and Goetz Medals
« Reply #8 on: May 18, 2014, 05:32:29 PM »
SS, I'm thinking WAG-O came into a cache of re-strikes about the same time the Hirsch (Gorney 94) stuff came to market.  Doesn't anyone find it strange that Goetz re-strikes, dies and hubs, and assorted other 'problem' material all surfaced about the same time as the failed Gorney auction lots were offered by Hirsch, and that it centers around only a small number of German dealers?  Many of the sold Hirsch items were being marketed as 'models' but 'models' made by whom, Guido or Karl?  Auction results seem to imply the former.

The silver re-strikes, as you'd expect, look too good to be true.  They are consistently a nice matte, 'antiqued' finish.  Are they being created today, I don't know.  Could Guido have struck a deal with someone to produce these back in the 70's when Guido and Gunter became partners to sell the soul of Karl?  Again, don't know.  I doubt Guido's actual hand was involved since these re-strikes are clearly beyond Guido's capabilities in comparison to his other rip-offs of his father's work.

As exhibited by WAG-O (and their surrogate ebay seller mentioned in other threads) there does seem to be an almost inexhaustible supply of these re-strikes.   

Offline Haarmann

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Re: The Bavarian Mint and Goetz Medals
« Reply #9 on: May 22, 2014, 09:49:40 PM »
nosferatu, you might be on to something.  I just took a look at WAG-o's auction 40 Goetz pieces and they are selling ten or so 36mm silver medals that were all struck at the Bavarian mint originally, but really only one of them has the requisite mint edge-stamp as written in it's description here: http://muenzen.wago-auktionen.de/losdetail.aspx?auktion=40&losnr=1590&rid=10 and it's made of WHITE-METAL!?!  BHM doesn't edge-stamp white metal medals!?!  You also mention the 'matte' appearance of the suspected restrikes and all of them do have this appearance.
 
I hope collectors are picking up on the fact that BHM-less medals are restrikes.  They certainly aren't being told this by the dealers.  Kienast originally claimed that the most rare medals of Goetz were the WWII silver medals.  I don't think that was the case then, and it certainly isn't the case now.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2014, 10:47:31 PM by Haarmann »