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The Infamous Gorny & Mosch Auktion 68 / Investigation 'Toolbox'
« Last post by Henry Scott Goodman on July 26, 2014, 04:03:09 PM »
Here is a list of my documents, catalogs, ephemera, etc., which might be beneficial in answering some questions about the material in question.

1)  The Gorny & Mosch Auktion 68 catalog
2)  The Hirsch Auktion 272 catalog and digital images of the Goetz material
3)  The Hirsch Auktion 284_285 catalog with digital images of the Goetz material
4)  The 1988 Guido Goetz/Gunter Kienast Recast Medal and Medallion Catalog
5)  Karl Goetz' medal cabinet that housed this material, and the ID placards placed in the cabinet by Guido to identify each item
6)  Correspondence from Gunter Kienast discussing and translating some of the Gorny & Mosch catalog material
7)  1981 "Medallic Portraits of Adolf Hitler" Colbert/Hyder Appendix letter from Guido Goetz

I was not compelled to drink the Hirsch auktion kool-aid and thus, do not own any of the material sold during auktion 272, nor the subsequent auktion 284/285 where unsold auktion 272 material was offered.  There are many questions regarding this material and I'll safely assume that we will not get much information from the dealers.  One tidbit I can share about auktion 272 though is that there were only THREE attendees at the live auktion, all dealers.  Anyone owning Goetz material from this auktion will be be integral to further investigation.  I've heard from some that medals, medallions, and 'models' had different measurements from BOTH auktion descriptions.

What can you provide to help us get to the bottom of this investigation? 
nosferatu, you might be on to something.  I just took a look at WAG-o's auction 40 Goetz pieces and they are selling ten or so 36mm silver medals that were all struck at the Bavarian mint originally, but really only one of them has the requisite mint edge-stamp as written in it's description here: and it's made of WHITE-METAL!?!  BHM doesn't edge-stamp white metal medals!?!  You also mention the 'matte' appearance of the suspected restrikes and all of them do have this appearance.
I hope collectors are picking up on the fact that BHM-less medals are restrikes.  They certainly aren't being told this by the dealers.  Kienast originally claimed that the most rare medals of Goetz were the WWII silver medals.  I don't think that was the case then, and it certainly isn't the case now.
SS, I'm thinking WAG-O came into a cache of re-strikes about the same time the Hirsch (Gorney 94) stuff came to market.  Doesn't anyone find it strange that Goetz re-strikes, dies and hubs, and assorted other 'problem' material all surfaced about the same time as the failed Gorney auction lots were offered by Hirsch, and that it centers around only a small number of German dealers?  Many of the sold Hirsch items were being marketed as 'models' but 'models' made by whom, Guido or Karl?  Auction results seem to imply the former.

The silver re-strikes, as you'd expect, look too good to be true.  They are consistently a nice matte, 'antiqued' finish.  Are they being created today, I don't know.  Could Guido have struck a deal with someone to produce these back in the 70's when Guido and Gunter became partners to sell the soul of Karl?  Again, don't know.  I doubt Guido's actual hand was involved since these re-strikes are clearly beyond Guido's capabilities in comparison to his other rip-offs of his father's work.

As exhibited by WAG-O (and their surrogate ebay seller mentioned in other threads) there does seem to be an almost inexhaustible supply of these re-strikes.   
Karl Goetz 1875-1950 / Re: population
« Last post by Barber25 on May 18, 2014, 05:00:55 PM »
An idea I have seen utilized in other clubs is a survey to be filled out by all members, once we build a larger community.  The members would be able to assign a rarity level to the various opus numbers, based on what they own and/or what they have seen over the years.  These census figures, and/or perceptions of rarity would be an interesting starting point to determine rarity levels, and maybe allow a WAG as to number of pieces that have survived.
I found a site for Dirk Loebbers where the K-262 dies or hubs were for sale.  This was just in the past week but they are no longer there.  If you go to Loebbers area on the MA coins web site he has three or four other sets of dies for sale too.  Since the K-262 dies weren't sold by Heritage could we assume that Loebbers was the consignor/owner?  He is also co-owner of WAG (the company selling multiples of struck, silver, 36mm Goetz medals that don't have the requisite BHM edge marks, restrikes). 

I find this suspect since any possible analysis to compare the dies removed from the Heritage sale with the restrikes is not possible now.  Could this be his CYA moment?  Granted, he is asking far higher prices than he would have gotten selling through Heritage.  Am I sucking on the wrong neck?   
I received word today from Michael Peplinski at Heritage that the consignor has pulled the consignment containing the remainder of the hubs and dies and had them shipped back to Germany.  It was assumed this was done due to the soft interest during the second stage of the sale in September.

I will attempt to make contact with the consignors and see if they have images that can be used for documentation for the remainder of these pieces.  I have captured all the images from the first two auctions for collectors to use for comparative analysis and would hate to miss out on this last batch that would contain most of the WWII medal dies and hubs.
Karl Goetz 1875-1950 / Re: population
« Last post by Henry Scott Goodman on March 19, 2014, 11:43:40 PM »
Kienast had figured a total of 784 designs/creations but this number is flawed because varieties of certain medals were given an 'Opus' number when the piece should have actually been given a variety number e.g. K-19b.  Kienast's number should be closer to 750 known at this time.  Additionally, I believe there are another 10+ pieces Kienast 'identified' as Goetz works that are questionable.  Add to this that there doesn't seem to have been any peer review regarding the authenticity, either based on provenance or stylistically, of these pieces I have identified.  Remove these examples (paper to be written about these examples) and the total number hovers around 735-740.

In my research I have identified an additional 10-15 medallic pieces I know I can attribute to Goetz (another paper to be written to garner peer review).  This would raise the total number back up to 760-765.  This number is not set in stone and I imagine the number fluctuating +/- long after I'm gone.

So do we limit his works to only medals, medallions, plaques, plaquettes, coin patterns, wax seals (petschafts), tokens, and emergency money?  What about all the jewelry and jewelry designs, do we want to count these too?  I believe we do but perhaps with a distinctive break in the numbering.

I plan to present a proposal to logically renumber Goetz' works according to the year of creation.  Goetz didn't do a very good job of consistent numbering for his works and Kienast's numbering wasn't much better.  You currently have early pieces with late K-#'s and vice versa.  Comparative and stylistic studies would fare better exhibiting the works in logical order.  Again, I must present this idea to my peers in order to get a general agreement.

I'm not sure how you are perceiving the term 'opus' but it is quite simply what Goetz used as part of his numbering system e.g. Opus 5, Opus 6, Opus 7...  It is the same number that Kienast used but with a 'K' for Kienast replacing the 'Opus'.

I hope this helped rather than muddy your understanding.

PS.  I just had the opportunity to read your questions again aresgee and I see that I didn't catch the actual intent of your first question, "Is there a total count of medals manufactured by KG?" No one knows actual issue numbers.  Guido, Karl's son, claims that all the records were destroyed in the Munich allied bombing raids of WWII, at least those stored in Karl's workshop.  I don't know if this is true or not.  I have had hints by family members that there is, indeed, a master list of medal counts but even if so, I would find it difficult to believe they would be very accurate based on Karl's record keeping elsewhere in his business.  There is a researcher in Germany currently digging up numbers for Goetz medals struck at the Bavarian Mint.  This would be helpful but still would not contain information for privately struck and cast pieces. I think I can say safely that in excess of one million pieces were created...only because the Hindenburg commemorative was struck in over a million pieces.  Much further research is needed to formulate rarity for Goetz' works. 
Karl Goetz 1875-1950 / population
« Last post by aresgee on March 19, 2014, 12:37:48 PM »
Is there a total count of medals manufactured by KG? Is there a count of the different OPUS for the medals?
Thank You
Has anyone heard when this last session will occur?  I thought it was supposed to be next month, April, but I have been unable to find out information about it on the Heritage web site.

I'm going to assume that the 'rarer' WWII material should be offered.  That is, the material that hasn't been cherry-picked by the consignee already.
Redmikey,  Did you or anyone else notice that after this watchdog post was created this seller deleted/transferred his U.S. Ebay account "numismatic-antiquarian" to the British Ebay account "Imperial Investment" where they now sell exclusively?  First of all, I didn't know Ebay allowed businesses to change their name and Ebay location while still maintaining their feedback and sales count.  It seems some of the unregistered visitor activity here on the site was probably them reading this thread and they felt some heat.

The seller is still acting mum about medals not exhibiting the mint edge-stamp.  95% of these are coming out of WAG/WAG-O.  This guy is just another outlet to sell these after strikes.
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